Aucf-cs.471 net.general utcsrgv!utzoo!decvax!duke!ucf-cs!goldfarb Wed Mar 17 00:25:33 1982 Grammar Response Digest WARNING! Long Article Having received several replies to my `grammar' article, I decided to share them with the network. I have deleted names to protect the innocent and because I received specific requests to that effect. I will forward mail to any of these individuals if I am given a phrase or sentence that identifies the original letter. Thanks to the two people who pointed out my grammar errors. [I really DO know that grammar is not spelled with three m's.] ============================================================================== "All dare to write, who can or cannot read." Horace (65-8 BC) "Epistles", Book II ============================================================================== I think that one of the reasons why "computer types" tend to use improper grammar is that there is a strong tendency to deliberately break (arbitrary) conventions which violate one's sense logical con- struction. For instance, when ending a sentence with a parenthetical remark, I will not put the period inside of the close parenthesis because the period ends the sentence, not the remark. Similarly, I will put the comma following a quotation outside of the quotes to seperate it from the quotation in the interest of quoting someone exactly. However, as far as misuses of words, parts of speech, etc. I am a stickler for proper grammar. Comments? ============================================================================== Somebody had a law, once........... If you make it possible for programmers to write programs in English, you will find that programmers cannot write in English. ============================================================================== I agree with you that everyone's grammar is not perfect. I belive that part of the reason is that people enter their submissions to the net without the aid of a text editor (as I am doing now). They then change their minds after they hit return and must find a way to try to achieve the continuity of the idea. ============================================================================== Out of curiosity, what do you think is causing the (apparently) sudden decline? Is it the permissiveness of the 60's and 70's (people didn't bother to learn/teach grammar because it wasn't relevant) or is it the ubiquitous villain television (nobody reads anymore) or something else entirely? ============================================================================== re: your plaints re: grammar, etc.; as a card carrying, but non-practicing journalist, i wholeheartedly agree, but i must point out that you are being awfully superior for one who abuses commas the way you did in your complaint. check it out. btw, i am (of course) not paying proper obeisance to the great god STYLE in this message (lower case i, etc.), but my commas are in the right places. cheers, ernie ============================================================================== I too find bad grammar an annoyance. At the same time, I can't quite feel justified in my annoyance. I mean, what is *wrong* with poor grammar if meaning is preserved? Maybe I'm just a fuddy-duddy perfectionist? Still, it does irk me..... ============================================================================== It has got so bad that this university now require all first year students to pass a standard English language proficiency test in the first term. If they are unsuccessful, they must take courses in remedial English until they do pass. Actually, the problem is that the Secondary (and perhaps the Primary) school system in Ontario has fallen victim of the Benjamin Spok syndrome. They are more concerned with Johnny's little ego than whether Johnny can survive in soceity. This is a direct result of all the experimenting that was conducted by the educaterers [1] after the end of World War II when there was an attempt to deal with the flood of war babies that were coming into the school systems. Of course the UN "police" action in Korea helped to exacerbate this problem in the '50s. [1] For a treatment of the term "educaterer" see the motion picture Goodbye, My Fancy (Robert Young and Joan Crawford). Good stuff on the fate of education in America combined with a bittersweet romance. ============================================================================== There are at least a few people left in this world who believe that language provide a fixed framework for the communication of ideas between people who have nothing in common except the language, but they are few, (sorry, no comma, I changed my mind) and far between. I can only hope that Edwin Newman and the various Princetonians (sic) will prove immortal, because I see no one who is attempting to take their place. It is interesting to note that the use of good English causes difficulties for the user in this (forgive me) day and age. An explaination of this problem would require several pages, and have the tone of a diatribe.(sp?) I fear that I suffer from the "New Liberal Education", which is evident from my writing, however, I refuse to be proud of illiteracy. ============================================================================== I think that you really mean convenience. I find that the use of a common blunder (none come to mind immediately) is often better understood than the use of correct English. I have never been able to keep much patience when I am asked to translate good English into the 'common language' for the sake of a someone who has BS, MS and PhD from one of the better known schools. My lack of patience has lead me to murder the language regularly, including in written from, and at the request of reviewers, who ask for corrections to the grammar in a non-grammatical fashion.(ARRRGHHHHH!) The review process at this company [**deleted**] encourages such events through a process known as the 'required revision'. Management does not care -- perhaps I should say that they are tired of caring-- about such events, and the remedy for most such events is to toss the paper or concede (and commit barbarism). I have assumed that the situation is similar elsewhere, however I would be interested in tales from one who knows. ============================================================================== Some would say that the fault lies in our educational system, and I would partly agree. As to other reasons for the general problem, I am not in a position to speculate. However, as to netnews, my own particular reason for bad spelling is that there is no escape mechanism to the editor, to spell, etc. Fortunately, Mail does provide such escapes! PS will you summarize comments back to the net. Thanks. ============================================================================== I agree. I do find I tend to have spelling mistakes of a typographical origin in my computer mail, because i compose the message and type it (2 or 3 fingers) all at once. I doubt that anything can be done in the short term. If TV and computers were abolished, so kids would read *real literature* more, a better sense of english form and style might percolate into them? (some hope for the premise, though). ============================================================================== In my opinion, there is a very simple reason why Engineers, Computer Scientists, and other technical people have such a poor command of the English Language; very few English courses are required to receive a degree from this country's universities. When I was a student at UCLA ('73-'77), only one English class was required for engineering students. That is 10 weeks out of a total of four years! Unfortunately, there is no easy cure. The engineering program at UCLA required four years of taking four classes per quarter. Any additional required classes would just lengthen the time necessary to finish the program. ============================================================================== Well, I still get upset at such errors, but I've learned to live with them. One of the commonest mistakes (and least understandable, to me) is the use of "it's" when "its" is intended - I don't know how many times I've seen that on painted signs! There are spelling and grammatical errors liberally scattered through Berkeley's code. I don't think this is at all unique to computer scientists; grammatical illiteracy seems much more apparent to me now than it was 10 years ago. Perhaps in another 10 years the only literate people will be English majors? ============================================================================== You aren't alone. My wife and I (both technical staff here at [**deleted**] ) frequently share with each other the latest atrocities we've run across - this in an environment where most of our peers (and up) have graduate degrees. I believe you have to continue to call them as you see them, letting others know what your standards are (or maybe just that you even *have* standards). When I was teaching at the University of Wisconsin, I saw lots of seeming illiteracy (from the native speakers of English - the foreign students did much better). After a few semesters of this, I began to start each course with an announcement of the TRUE prerequisites for my class - throwing out the inflated math "requirement" (this was *intro* programming), and emphasizing my expectation that they do their best to communcicate as well as they could. Suprisingly enough, it seemed to work! I haven't found as simple a solution for here at work (yet), but I do try to review as many documents before their publication as I can. So far, I have refrained from jumping up and down about the rampant mis-use of 'to' and 'too', among other things, but I may soon. ============================================================================== I for one use the lame excuse that I tend to dash thoughts off quickly and irresponsibly. This gets my ideas out before I can twist them. If I go back to edit something (like a netnews submission) I tend to butcher the content in an effort to 'clean it up'. ============================================================================== I certenly agree! ============================================================================== Here, here! Let's try to get our act together. I'd hate to think that those who have anything to do with computers will become outcasts of the scholarly community because of something so trivial as abuse of language. There are after all many good minds in the computer oriented society. (If the phrase "abuse of language" doesn't bother you think of it in German terms, they would say "rape of language". ============================================================================== You aren't the last of the die-hard traditionalists -- yes, there are others who have similar strong feelings. However, you seem to be saying that computer people are especially bad offenders. From what I've seen at this university, the spelling and grammar of the average computer science student is no worse than that of the average arts student. ============================================================================== You misspelled grammar in the text of your message. My only theory about the poor grammar and spelling among technical people relates to reading and writing. Many of them probably went to public schools and did little or no creative writing. Many of them are also TV junkies. Both factors contribute to poor language skills. ============================================================================== I hope you have enjoyed reading these interesting opinions as much as I did. Ben Goldfarb ..duke!ucf-cs!goldfarb ----------------------------------------------------------------- gopher://quux.org/ conversion by John Goerzen of http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/ This Usenet Oldnews Archive article may be copied and distributed freely, provided: 1. There is no money collected for the text(s) of the articles. 2. The following notice remains appended to each copy: The Usenet Oldnews Archive: Compilation Copyright (C) 1981, 1996 Bruce Jones, Henry Spencer, David Wiseman.