Aucbvax.5833 fa.space utcsrgv!utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!space Mon Jan 18 13:39:54 1982 SPACE Digest V2 #81 >From OTA@S1-A Sat Jan 16 03:33:26 1982 SPACE Digest Volume 2 : Issue 81 Today's Topics: Harry Stine and the Dean Drive Thiotimoline 1982 NASA Schedule Analog 'hoaxes' Harry Stine Harry Stein and Physics Harry Stein and Physics (sri-unix.514) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri Jan 15 00:54:39 1982 To: Space@MIT-MC From: Onyx.jeffc@Berkeley Subject: Harry Stine and the Dean Drive Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Perhaps the most convincing argument I've ever seen that proves that the Dean Drive is IMPOSSIBLE is the one offered by Isaac Asimov in his autobiography, when he was discussing John Campell's eccentricities (to put it nicely). While I don't remember the exact wording, it went something like this (after explaining how it was supposed to work): That's just fine. Except that it violates the law of conservation of momentum, and the law of conservation of angular momentum, and if it actually worked I don't believe that the physicists would ever be able to put back together again the laws of physics after the shambles that would result. Sigh. You'd never know that Stine was into such mysticism from reading that excellent book, the Third Industrial Revolution. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1982 13:26:01-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX To: space-enthusiasts at mit-mc Subject: Thiotimoline was indeed invented by Isaac Asimov. As he says in IN MEMORY YET GREEN (vol. 1 of autobiography) he had been selling SF since very early in college and, a decade later, was worried that he wouldn't be able to summon the turgid prose considered appropriate for a doctoral thesis in chemistry after developing an excellent, readable style for the SF magazines. (A lot of his prose seems bland or flat today but his early work was certainly much better as writing than much of what was published then.) He accordingly wrote this fake scientific paper, "The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline", which Campbell published in a tall tales section of ASF. Another paper described side effects of thiotimoline, and "Thiotimoline to the Stars", written for the Campbell memorial anthology, proposed its use in space travel. (If you can't have FTL, get up to relativistic speeds and use t- to pull your ship back so that internal and external times appear to match.) Asimov also claims that after he had been grilled on general chemistry and the contents of his thesis one of the professors asked, "And now, \\Mr.// Asimov, what can you tell us about the properties of thiotimoline?" at which point A had to be carried from the room. Incidentally, ASF has had a number of strange things show up in it, since Campbell was given to a wide range of enthusiasms. (This is far from uncommon in geniuses; Edison, for instance, was rare in being able to make practical objects out of most of his ideas, and the later interests of, for instance, Newton, can be embarassing to the historian of science.) But I don't think it is legitimate to speak of "hoaxes" in ASF, save in the humorous reading of the word (e.g., thiotimoline, Kelvin Throop); so far as a large number of people have been able to discover, it has never succumbed to the sort of behavior common in, for instance, flying saucer magazines. ------------------------------ Date: 15 January 1982 15:09-EST From: Robert M. Gerber Sender: ___115 at MIT-AI Subject: 1982 NASA Schedule To: SPACE at MIT-AI cc: GERBER at MIT-AI 1982 NASA Schedule [From Science News V121#1 2-Jan-82] Month Mission Description ===== ============= ================================ Jan RCA-C' communications Feb Westar IV communications Feb Intelsat V-D communications March Space Shuttle third orbital test flight April INSAT-1A communications (India) May Intelsat V-E communications June NOAA-E weather, search-and-rescue June Navy 21 navigation July Landsat D communications July Space Shuttle fourth orbital test flight Aug Telesat G communications (Canada) Sept Westar V communications Oct RCA-E communications ?Oct IRAS IR astronomy (US/Netherlands/UK) Nov Space Shuttle first operation flight Nov San Marco D/L atmospheric research (US/Italy) Dec Intelsat VA-A communications ------------------------------ Date: 16 January 1982 04:09-EST From: Jerry E. Pournelle Subject: Analog 'hoaxes' To: TAW at S1-A cc: REM at MIT-MC, SPACE at MIT-MC, SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC (1) John W. Campbell personally saw the Dean Machine and stated many times that he saw a (small) reduction in the apparent weighht as measured by a bathroom scale when the machine was turned on. The machine jumped around a lot, however. (2) G. Harry Stine actually touched it and states that when turned on, it had a much stronger resistance to horizontal motion (it was at that time turnd on its side with a push-rod along the axis of 'thrust') when turned on than when turned off. he took no measurements because he was not permittd to. (3) Several aserospace firms including Boeing and MMM attempted to purchase the dean Machine after the famous picture in LIFE of Dave garroway thrusting a peice of paper under the machine. Dean wanted about $1 million and a Nobel prize IN ADVANCE. i know for a fact that one aerospace firm sent an irrevocable letter of credit worth $500,000 if signed by all of a three-person team (two engineers and one lawyer); their instructions wer to buy the damn thing if there wwere ANY lift or thrust whatever, on the groudns that a major company would get it working (and i you build airplanes you can build spaceships if you have a drive./..) They were unable to examine the machine sufficiently to be able to form an infomred conclusion. (4) No one knows whata happened to the original Dean Machine. The one described in the patent is NOT the machine that we saw operate. ------------------------------ Date: 16 January 1982 04:12-EST From: Jerry E. Pournelle Subject: Harry Stine To: DYER at NBS-10 cc: klh at MIT-AI, space at MIT-AI G. Harry Stine is a curator of the aerospace museum, a well-known author and cunsultant, and a private pilot of his own airplane; and indeed a very sound engineer. He has written a lot about model rockets and was very influential in design of safety equipment in that hobby. As to some people doing anything for a living, Harry hasn't time to do silly thngs. He's far too busy writing damned good books. ------------------------------ Date: 16 January 1982 04:20-EST From: Jerry E. Pournelle Subject: Harry Stein and Physics To: KATZ at USC-ISIF cc: SPACE at MIT-MC, klh at MIT-AI, sf-lovers at MIT-AI I suspect Harry's physics is a little better than some people's spelling. G. Harry Stine worked for a number of years as assistant to Dr. (Col.) William Davis. Now "Spacedrive" Davis was indeed considered wrong; but he was pretty well respected even so. Not a crackpot. I thought Harry's article a bit intemperate, but I've noticed a number of physicists who didn't seem very interested in looking at new data either. A few years ago we had a big meeting on Davis Mechanics and the Dean Drive, on the theory that if there was ANY chance of experimental data in contradiction to relativity it would be worth presewrving. Dr. Robert Forward of Hughes Research wasn't too proud to come to the meeting. Dr. Robert Bussard hasn't been too proud to discuss the subjhect. True, the evidence is skimpy to non-existent, and if you had to bet you'd have to put your money on general relativity; but even Forward points out that in the Einstein tensor, inertia and gravity aren't NECESSARILY equal. Empirically they turn out to be so to about 11 decimal places, but the Cal Tech people way there's still no really definitive reason why they should; at least that's what I think Lee and Lightman were saying. Certainly Forward says it. It's one thing to be convinced of orthodox physical theory and to defend it; it's quite another to become intemperate in the defense. Harry is probably wrong, and he loves to rattle people's cages anyway; leave it at that, and don't think it necessary to destroy the man. ------------------------------ Date: Fri Jan 15 15:09:50 1982 To: Space at MIT-MC From: ARPAVAX.Onyx.jmrubin at Berkeley Subject: Harry Stein and Physics (sri-unix.514) The Dean drive? That hoary fraud? Next you'll be telling me about a new perpetual motion device. I suspect the science articles in Analog have been influenced by the ghost of its most famous editor, John Campbell. (spelling?) As a science-fiction pulp editor, he was great. However, he entertained notions like Dianetics, psi, the Dean Drive, et. al. (And Dianetics actually started in the pages of Amazing, the predecessor to Analog.) Joel Rubin ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest ******************* ----------------------------------------------------------------- gopher://quux.org/ conversion by John Goerzen of http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/ This Usenet Oldnews Archive article may be copied and distributed freely, provided: 1. There is no money collected for the text(s) of the articles. 2. The following notice remains appended to each copy: The Usenet Oldnews Archive: Compilation Copyright (C) 1981, 1996 Bruce Jones, Henry Spencer, David Wiseman.